DO 29027/93

—Dad's Discussion with Mama about Her "Wave" Questions!

1. (TO MAMA:) Honey, in your letter to me you more or less briefly summarise the "Wave" vision & what you understood it to mean, & then you present your question. Here it is: "There's one thing from a Biblical standpoint that I'm not clear on‚ so others may likewise be unclear on this point. If we are in the first 3-&-1/2 years of the Antichrist's reign, how do we fit in the verses in Daniel about the daily sacrifice being stopped at the time of the revealing of the Antichrist, when the Tribulation begins?"

2. You're always speaking for the Family, Honey, you voice their questions. Our teaching on this, which has been the same as most Bible prophecy students, has been that since the daily sacrifice is stopped by the Antichrist (Dan.9:27; 8:11), it must have been resumed some time previously. And our standard conclusion has been that therefore the Jews' temple must have been rebuilt so they could begin having the daily sacrifice which the Antichrist stops when he breaks the Covenant. That's a step-by-step logical interpretation. However, just because that's the way it's been interpreted by us & most Bible students‚ including Scofield & a lot of others, it does not mean that it's necessarily going to happen that way! Again, I'm talking about the interpretation or theory that in order for the Antichrist to stop the daily sacrifices, the Jewish temple has to be rebuilt in order for their daily sacrifices to have been resumed. That is simply a theory.

3. (Mama: But that's what we've taught most of the time.) (Dad continues:) The problem is that people so often take some of our interpretations of Bible prophecy as outright fact, the only way it could possibly be, when sometimes the interpretation is just a theory. We have taught this particular one as a possibility, because how else could the daily sacrifices be stopped unless they had first been started? And how could they have been started unless the temple & its altar had been rebuilt? But just because a theory sounds logical doesn't mean that it's necessarily so. I know that I can be pretty definite in my theories sometimes, but I still try to make it clear that they're just that, theories‚ what I happen to believe or how I happen to interpret things.

4. That has been our theory because what else could it be? How could the AC stop sacrifices if they hadn't been started? And how could they have been started unless the temple was rebuilt in which they sacrifice? Well, that has been the standard theory of nearly all evangelical Bible prophecy interpreters‚ led by Scofield & his Bible.—Which if in this case he is wrong, he's wrong again, as he has certainly been wrong about a lot of other things!

Revelation Regarding the … "Daily Sacrifice!"

5. All I know is this, & all I can tell you is this, that as I was reading your question & praying about the answer, a very shocking answer came to me, totally unlike the above teaching, totally different but almost totally aligned with events which are presently taking place! Now you might think I've really gone wild in my imagination! But all I know is I was deep in prayer, "Lord, what's the answer?", & this is what came to me:

6. [They] have already resumed their sacrifices, & we are it! It's been a long time since [they] … were strong enough to persecute Christians the way they're now persecuting us. They have been persecuted. But now the times of the Gentiles are being fulfilled in the very End & it's getting to be just like it was in the days of the Roman Empire! And what were [they] … doing then? They were sacrificing Christians. In fact, they're the ones that sacrificed Jesus Himself, He was the sacrificial Lamb.

7. [Their] persecution of the Church began even before the Roman persecutions. [They] are the ones who brought on the Roman persecutions. … (Tongues:) "Listen to these things which thy father saith unto you, which are the true fulfillment of this Scripture. Hear ye it!" Thank You Jesus! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! How fitting! How fitting! …

8. … Rome didn't want to persecute the Christians. Pilate & the Romans didn't even want to persecute them, but [they] insisted on it & demanded it—their sacrifice. …

9. [The] war against religion & Christianity is going to be much easier to pull off in secret, especially when the Antichrist appears to pull the whole World out of a mess & he acts like God, looks like God‚ seems to have the power of God, so that they'll even worship him as God.

Why Would the AC Cause the … Sacrifice of Christians to Cease?

10. (Mama: Why would the Antichrist cause the … sacrifice of Christians to cease? It seems like he'd be happy that we were being persecuted.) Well, let me ask you a question. What do [they] think they're doing when they sacrifice us? They think they're doing God service. "They shall put you out of their synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."—Jn.16:2. They think they're persecuting & killing us in service to God! What God? (Mama: They think they're doing service to the true God.) Right, they claim to be serving Jehovah, the God of the Bible.

11. But up comes the Antichrist & what does he say? (Mama: He claims to be God.) He claims to be God, so he stops their sacrifices which they think they are making to the true God, the God of the Bible. He demands & insists on worship of himself. He stops all sacrifices to the true God & insists that they worship him as God instead. (Mama: So when it says he stops the daily sacrifices it means that he stops the daily sacrifices to God. It's not that he's against them persecuting & sacrificing Christians‚ he just doesn't want anyone worshipping or sacrificing to the true God.) Right, he wants all the worship for himself.

12. When does the Antichrist claim to be God & insist on being worshipped & set up his Image, at what point? (Mama: At the beginning of the Tribulation, 3-&-1/2 years into the 7 years.) Right‚ in the midst of his reign‚ at the end of the first 3-&–1/2 years. (See Dan.9:27; Mat.24:15,21.) Now at that point, at the end of the first 3-&-1/2 years, why does it say "then shall that Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition‚ be revealed"? Why should the Bible call it the revelation of the Antichrist? Why should it say that he will be revealed? (Mama: Because he's been working in secret, behind the scenes up until that point.) Right! That's certainly what it sounds like!—Because he's been working behind the scenes but then he's going to be revealed. [They] are going to bring him out & introduce him to the World as the Messiah—God! Their god!—The one who most of them, of course, have been worshipping all along, although most of them didn't realise it. Get it?

13. (Mama: They thought they were worshipping another God.) Yes‚ they thought they were worshipping Jehovah, the true God. But Jesus Himself said of them, "Ye are of your father the Devil! He was a liar from the beginning, & the father of it. Ye are not of God!"—Jn.8:44,47. So when they sacrificed Jesus on the cross they thought they were sacrificing Him for whom? (Mama: For the true God.) Right, they thought they were sacrificing to the one true God, let's call Him Jehovah so there's no confusion about which "God" we're talking about. But though they thought they were doing it for Jehovah, they were literally doing it for whom? (Mama: The Devil.) The Devil!

14. Throughout [their] persecutions of Christians, they thought they were doing service to God. Even Saul, who later became the Apostle Paul‚ persecuted Christians & imprisoned & even killed them because he thought he was doing it for whom? (Mama: Jehovah.) Jehovah God. But in reality, he was literally doing it for whom? (Mama: The Devil.) Right. He said, "Ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the Church of God‚ and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion."—Gal.1:13-14.

What Is the "Temple"?

15. So I got this bomb all of a sudden, something I never thought of before, that we are their sacrifice! "But, Lord," I thought, "what about the temple?" Now when the Word talks about the Jews' sacrifices that the Antichrist puts an end to, it doesn't specifically say that those are made in front of the temple. It does talk about the "sanctuary" & "holy place" (Dan.11:31; Mat.24:15), but it doesn't use the actual word "temple" in relation to the Antichrist until 2Thessalonians chapter 2, where it says that when the Man of Sin is going to declare himself to be God, when he is revealed, he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."—2Thes.2:4.

16. So I said, "Lord‚ isn't that proof that he's going to rebuild the temple?" Then just as clearly as anything, my father's interpretation came to me. This kind of interpretation is called spiritualisation, different from the literal interpretations of Scofield & his literalists, as they were called. My father used to scoff at that literal interpretation & say that a literal building is not the temple of God. When Jesus was talking to the woman of Samaria, He told her that the true worshippers of God don't need to worship in Jerusalem or Mt. Gerizim, but in Spirit & in Truth. (Jn.4:21–24.) And what does the New Testament teach is the temple of God? (Mama: We're the temple.) "Ye are the temple of God!"—1Cor.3:16. Who are "ye"? (Mama: Those who have received Jesus.) And there's a general word applied to those who know the Lord, which is even in the Bible, although it's misused nowadays.

17. What is the nomenclature that is used for all of the believers in the Lord? (Mama: Christians?) Yes, Christians is one word, but what is the other most commonly used word, which is even applied to their buildings? (Mama: The Church.) The Church! But even though a lot of churchy Christians consider their church buildings to be temples of God where God is to be worshipped, Jesus Himself specifically said what? (Mama: That they that worship God shall worship Him in Spirit & in Truth.) This is what God is pleased with. (Mama: "The Father seeketh such to worship Him.") Yes, He seeks people who will worship Him in Spirit & in Truth. And where's that? (Mama: In your heart.) Right‚ in themselves, in their heart & soul. So who are the true temples of God? (Mama: It says, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit?"—1Cor.3:16-17. It's those who have the Holy Spirit.) Right, those who have Jesus.

18. And collectively, those who have Jesus are called what?—Again, it's that word that I'm seeking for. (Mama: The Church.) So since the Church is where God is worshipped, if Christians themselves are those places of worship, the New Testament calls them what? "The temple of God!" And it says in Second Thessalonians that the Antichrist shall sit in the temple of God claiming that he is God.

19. Now the literalists led by Scofield & most evangelicals immediately say, "Well, that means the Jewish temple." Scofield was a Christian Jew, as were nearly all of the so-called Brethren‚ the denomination of the Brethren. The Church of the Brethren were largely Christian Jews who came out of Germany, therefore they swallowed & promoted anything that was Jewish, & they wanted everything about a Christian to be as Jewish flavoured as possible. Scofield thought & taught that Jewish Christians were "higher" & more special than Gentile Christians, & that the Jews were still the chosen people.

20. He taught that the Gentiles just got in on the deal through "grafting" (Rom.11:17-24), but they weren't really the "chosen people" like the so-called Jews are. Scofield fostered the doctrine that "We Jewish Christians have something special over you other Christians!" So the Brethren tried to make everything as Jewish as possible. The Scofield literalistic, evangelical interpretation of Bible prophecy is almost entirely literal & almost entirely Jewish. So when the New Testament talks about the temple, they still interpret the temple as being what? (Mama: The Jewish place of worship.) The old Jewish temple again.

21. But when it says so specifically in Thessalonians that the Antichrist, the Devil in person, will sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is God, claiming to be God, where is he sitting if it's not in a rebuilt Jewish temple? (Mama: I guess it would mean amongst the Christians.) Exactly. And he will be proclaiming himself as God among not only Christians but Jews & everyone else as well. When he's proclaiming that he's God & demanding worship, he's trying to do what? He's trying to take the place of God in the hearts of men!—The true temple of God! He's trying to sit in the temple of God in men's hearts & demand their worship.

22. We are the Church, the one true temple of God, & even some of the Jews—the saved Jews, the Jewish Christians—are the Church. So the Antichrist is going to try to take the place of God amongst Jews & Christians & the rest of the World‚ in the hearts of men. Isn't that what he's trying to do? (Mama: Yes.) And just like we Christians are a temple made of living stones (1Pet.2:5), & our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the Devil's people are a temple for him, & their bodies are temples of unholy spirits.

The Antichrist's Image in the Holy Place!

23. And he sets up his Image in the Holy Place. Now because my father believed that the holy place is the heart of Man, what did he think the Image of the Beast was? All I can do is tell you what my father thought. (Mama: One time you speculated it was TV.) Exactly! My Dad thought that the best picture of the Antichrist, actually‚ of the Devil & all of his images, was television. And TV certainly is an image, millions of images.

24. Television images are what the World worships most, & they are literally images of the Devil & all his people & all his worldly things. (Mama: "The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes & the pride of life."—1Jn.2:15–16.) Yes, & my father used to claim that he felt that TV was going to be the Antichrist's Image. Well frankly, I don't necessarily agree with him on that, but it is a rather logical deduction. I tend to think that the Image is going to be the grand finale, a literal Image of the Antichrist himself. Of course, I could be wrong on that, we'll see. This is another one of my theories, as well as one of the theories of the literalists.

25. Jesus said that when ye shall see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, set up in the holy place, then that begins the Tribulation. Then there shall be Great Tribulation such as never was before & never again shall be. (Mat.24:15,21.) That sounds pretty literal to me, so I'm willing to accept the theory that the Image of the Beast is literal. But in a sense, it could also still be in the hearts of men. It could still be a literal image that he sets up in the so–called holy place of Jerusalem. Of course, Jerusalem is anything but "holy" today! So the Image could be literal, or it could be spiritual. Or it could be partly literal & partly spiritual.—We just don't know yet!

26. (Mama: If it is literal, & the Antichrist is going to set it up in a literal holy place, then it seems like the temple has to be rebuilt before the 3-&-1/2 year mark.) If that's the holy place‚ yes. If that's the holy place, then they would have to rebuild a literal Jewish temple. But what if that temple is what the New Testament says, in the hearts of men? Then that could easily be something that's worshipped worldwide. There's hardly anything that is worshipped more worldwide today than the images of television.

27. Of course, you're probably thinking, if television is the Image, then the Antichrist has been worshipped for a long time! Well‚ I don't think he's issued any edicts yet that his Image has to be worshipped or the people get killed!—"Watch your TV or I'm going to kill you! Get the Mark of the Beast or you can't buy or sell!" That sounds a little bit more like Orwell's "Big Brother," doesn't it, of 1984? Well, it could be 1994!

28. (Mama: If the temple is not literal but is in the hearts of the believers‚ then it seems that the Image would likewise not be literal.) Now wait a minute. The temple of the true God, of Jesus, is in the hearts of believers. But are the hearts of believers the only temples? (Mama: No.) There are millions of temples which worship other gods, millions of believers in other gods, right? So you can't say that the Antichrist is being set up in the hearts of the believers in the true God. He's being set up only in the hearts of those who receive & believe in him, the Antichrist.

29. Of course, he'll try to set himself up as God in all the temples, but it's not going to work with Christians who already worship the Lord. True Christians will refuse to set up any such image of him as God in their hearts. They will also refuse to accept the Mark of the Beast, & will also therefore get killed. Many will be sacrificed. The False Prophet somehow empowers the Image so that it can cause those who refuse to worship it to be killed. (Rev.13:15.) That's another place where it all sounds pretty literal. Some have said that's a super-computer of some kind. Oddly enough, a number of different movies have depicted a computer emerging as the god that is issuing orders & bossing the World around. The Lord often gives little hints of what is coming by having things cast their shadows before. That's what a lot of movies are‚ shadows.

An Amazing Answer: We're the Sacrifice!

30. All I know is these are the thoughts that came to me when I asked the Lord your questions: If this is the first half of the rule of the Antichrist, then why aren't they building the temple or preparing to build the temple? Well, the Book of Daniel speaks of the temple sacrifices being stopped halfway through the Antichrist's 7-year reign. Therefore the literalists have theorised that it had to of course start sometime during the first 3-&–1/2 years of his reign. That is literal logic, not necessarily proven genuine Bible interpretation.

31. When I asked the Lord about your questions regarding the temple & the daily sacrifice, the answer I got never occurred to me before. It was almost like a picture: The Antichrist & his [ACs] were using us as their sacrifices. We are being sacrificed on the altar of [their] worship. That's literally what's happened. I never got that kind of picture or interpretation before. But it corresponds to some of the things that my father believed, that the temple is spiritual & that the Antichrist is going to set himself & his Image up in the hearts of the people. This interpretation does away with the need to restore & rebuild the old Jewish temple of stone. After all, the Bible says that His temple is built of living stones—us, people. "Ye, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house."—1Pet. 2:5.

32. This is the answer I got to your questions, so you can take it or leave it.—That these sacrifices are going on right now. …

More Questions & Answers on [Their] Sacrifice!

33. (Mama: But their sacrifices of us won't necessarily stop when they turn to the Antichrist‚ will they?) No, from then on‚ they're commanded to worship the Antichrist, & if they refuse, they're to be killed. And since Christians will refuse to worship him, obviously the sacrifices of Christians aren't going to stop. (Mama: They already had one great big burnt offering at Waco.) Yes, horrible! (Mama: Cruel.) Horrible, but sacred to the Lord. That verse comes to me, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of the saints."—Psa.116:15.

34. We are already being sacrificed by the [ACs] to the Antichrist. In that vision I had of him‚ he was already demanding that they somehow stop us, which would mean sacrifice us. Some day soon he's going to command that the whole World sacrifices & tries to kill us off. (Mama: I'm sorry, but I don't understand. He's going to demand that the sacrifice be stopped, but it is going to continue?) Right now, many of them think that their attacks on us are "as unto God," the true God‚ & the Antichrist isn't going to allow any worship of the true God to continue. So in that sense‚ sacrifices to God are going to be stopped, & he's going to demand that all sacrifices be made to him & him alone. So they will no doubt continue their persecution & sacrificing of us, but not unto Jehovah, but directly as unto the Antichrist.

35. All I know is that's the answer I got when I asked the Lord your questions. And that was the one question you had that was a problem: How could the first half of the Antichrist's rule be secret & how could it be going on now when the temple is not being rebuilt? Well, I'm not going to definitely say that it won't be, but I am going to tell you what I got as the answer.—That he's already being worshipped & set up in the hearts of men! But the time will come when he's going to stop all other worship & demand that worship be made only to him.

36. The most amazing part about it was what came to me just as clear as anything when I asked what is this sacrifice of the temple? The [ACs] have already begun sacrificing us to the Antichrist! That's what they're really doing. (Mama: They just don't know that it's to him, they think they're sacrificing to Jehovah.)

37. The Antichrist is going to stop all worship of any kind except worship of himself, he causeth the sacrifices to cease. … [But] it'll then be open worship of the Antichrist, & those who will be killed from then on will be sacrificed to the Antichrist.

38. All I know is that's the answer I got, you can take it or leave it. (Mama: Thank you. That certainly is eye-opening & seems quite an amazing but fitting interpretation.)

The "Wave": All at Once? Or in Phases & Stages?

39. Another question you asked me in your letter was‚ "Do you think that this wave of refugees sweeping worldwide could actually come in different stages?—Or maybe this Wave is something that you saw happening in all parts of the World at the same time?" Well, I never said that the Wave was something that happened suddenly & all at once. In my vision it looked like one big wave, but in some ways it could be a series of waves.

40. It reminds me of what we used to say about the prophecies of the Bible: From a distance they could look like one big mountain or one big range, but when you get up closer to those events they begin to take on shape as a series of mountains & ranges instead‚ each one distinguished from another. (See ML#2210:15-20, "Interpreting Bible Prophecy.") (Mama: So it could turn out to be persecution in one place first, then persecution in another place?) Yes, it could certainly come in stages.

41. You were also asking me if part of the Wave could be voluntary. My answer is, yes, of course. Maybe the first ones to leave are voluntary, since there are quite a few of our people voluntarily leaving different fields right now. (Mama: That's right. In other words, they're leaving of their own accord without getting kicked out.)

42. I never said they would all get kicked out. Perhaps I gave you that impression. Because I was deeply believing that the persecution is going to get more severe very rapidly, that led me to assume that a large part of this wave is going to be involuntary & as a result of persecution. But much of it could easily be voluntary. It's just a wave of returnees from these different countries.

43. What made you think that it had to be something that starts suddenly & sweeps rapidly? (Mama: I think the word "refugees" threw me.) Returnees is a very good word, that might be better. (Mama: Yes‚ returnees seems clearer.) Of course, some will be refugees, but others have already been returnees.

44. (Mama: The reason I thought it would take place at the End is because you got that verse from that hymn about fleeing to the Lord for refuge. You had a picture of Jesus coming to catch us away, & said that's where we were fleeing to, to Jesus.) Yes, that's what will happen in the very End! That's the very end of the Wave when it has run its course & crashed on the beaches.

45. Of course, in a sense it eventually crashes in each one of the places it reaches as it rolls along. Maybe I shouldn't use the word "crashed." I saw it just sweeping over each of these different countries. When we're forced out of each of these countries, that could certainly be called a crash, couldn't it? (Mama: Yes.) So in a sense it crashes on beach after beach after beach. (Mama: A crash is when you finally have to leave; when it gets so bad that you can't do anything more‚ then you crash, right?) That's for sure. When the wave that you're riding crashes‚ you're done with it.

46. It was a gradual rolling wave, crashing on beach after beach after beach. You said, "Well, it looks like it will have to be at the end of the Tribulation." I still don't know why you would think that the Wave would have to be at the end of the Tribulation. (Mama: Because you said that we were fleeing to Jesus, & would be meeting Him in the air. You were asking a question, "Lord, where is this wave of refugees going? Where can they go?")

47. I meant where could they go after they've reached their last beach, where could they go from there? Where could they go from the last beaches? That was my question. I was asking about when they've exhausted every beach‚ every wave, & there's no place left to go. (Mama: That would have to be at the very End then.) That would definitely have to be in the very End. That was the end of the Wave, & it was just so beautiful!

48. (Mama: I think that maybe the Wave has already come to some places. That's why I had a question, because in some of our fields, I don't see how too many more people could leave them to flee into other fields that have already absorbed so many returnees.) All right, maybe the Wave's already begun in some areas.

49. Would I be a faithful prophet of the Word of God if I got a revelation from God in answer to a question & I didn't pass it on? All I know is that I saw this Wave.—Isn't that to tell us something & to warn others? (Mama: Yes, it is.) God knows, there could be three more years left of the first half of the Antichrist's rule, & there are still 3-&-1/2 years of Tribulation to follow that.

50. We've definitely received some serious persecution over the last few months. When was it that I saw that picture of the Antichrist raging against us? (Mama: Several months ago [12/92].) If that was 6 months ago, & that meant that we're already in the last seven years‚ for the Wave to continue until the coming of the Lord‚ it could keep rolling for approximately another 6-1/2 years.

Catch the Wave in God's Time!

51. So the long & short of it is that of course the Wave is not one huge sudden thing that is going to happen overnight. In some places it's already happening! And it's not going to be just one single wave, it was a series of waves. Like the mountain tops of revelation that the Prophets saw, they frequently looked to them like one range, but as we get closer we often find out it's actually quite a few ranges. So don't get the idea that the Wave has to be one big thing that just suddenly hits & that's it.

52. As you said, a lot of our people have already left certain fields & are scattering into other fields. The Wave is already in process‚ it's already moving!

53. Are you ready to catch God's Wave & ride it to the destination of His choice? Keep your eyes on Jesus & do watch for His Wave! Amen? God bless you! I love you!