KEYWORDS: god, congregation, problem, prayer, spot, victory

Get the Victory or Get Out!

David Berg

—By Father DavidDFO 109010/11/81

1. WITH SOME OF THESE PROBLEM CASES YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A PUBLIC THING, PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. You've got to have united prayer for some of these things. It really works. Then you put the Lord on the spot & it's a testimony to everyone. I think that's why the Lord demands it, like the laying on of hands & anointing with oil so the whole Family is involved, so everyone wants to know afterwards, "Did God do it?" They're all going to be looking for results. Besides, the Lord likes unity & sometimes I think that's why He lets these things happen, to make us get together & pray together & believe Him together for their solution & their cure.

2. THE PARTY CONCERNED‚ THEMSELVES, THEY DON'T LIKE TO MAKE IT PUBLIC, YOU KNOW? But everybody knows about it anyhow, so they need to bring it right out in the open‚ face the facts & their fears & have public prayer for the whole thing. (Maria: For problem cases within the group.) Real serious problems which cannot seem to get deliverance any other way through private prayer or small leadership prayer, you know, that sort of thing. They need to get the whole bunch together & let'm know it's serious & get united prayer!

3. THE LORD LOVES UNITED PRAYER! People really get concerned about it. It's a testimony, it's a witness when you show that you have faith in prayer & exercise that faith by having everybody get together & pray. And then it really puts the person on the spot to deliver the goods or be a failure because very often it's up to their will.

4. IT PUTS THE PERSON ON THE SPOT, THE PROBLEM CASE ON THE SPOT, because then they know they're going to have to do it or be a public failure & everybody's going to know it. They know that God doesn't fail, but they know that it's their own will & their own determination that decides the issue, really. God is trying to put the person on the spot, & He's trying to put the people on the spot, too!—To show if they really believe in prayer, if they're gonna really have united Family prayer for a case like that!

5. (MARIA: AND IT GETS EVERYONE REALLY DESPERATE WITH THE LORD TOO!) Yes, they all know they've either got to exercise faith & really believe God & get results or else! Because it puts you on the spot when you publicly pray for people like that.—Every one of you! Either you had faith in prayer & it's going to work, or you didn't. And either they were determined to get the victory, or they weren't. We know God didn't fail.

6. YOU PUT YOURSELVES & THE CASE ON THE SPOT & you make it a public witness, a public testimony in a case like that where they've either got to get the victory or else, & the Family's got to get the victory or else! It makes it a public problem, but at the same time it makes it a public concerted united effort, & then finally it makes it a public witness when you do get the results. Then everybody can praise the Lord & know they had a part in united prayer.

7. THE LORD LOVES UNITED PRAYER! Call the Family or the Church together & have prayer—pray, pray, pray! It also finally puts God on the spot where He has got to honour your faith & your prayer or else!—And you know He won't fail. You've gotta pray for him desperately & get him down on his knees in front of'm on the floor in desperate prayer & everybody lay hands on him.

8. HONEY, I NEARLY ALWAYS DID THAT! (Maria: I guess in the early days we did but I think people have become more afraid to embarrass people.) Yes, they don't want to embarrass people, afraid of offending somebody. (Maria: Afraid to cause them to run out & become an enemy. If I have to have an enemy, I'd certainly rather have him on the outside than on the inside where he can cause far more trouble.) Well, I mean when it gets to where nothing else works & all else fails‚ they've got to! They've got to get together!

9. IT'S JUST LIKE WHAT THE LORD SAYS, IF YOU GO TO HIM PERSONALLY & HE WON'T DO IT, then you take two or three witnesses & go to him & deal with him, like leadership‚ & he still won't do it, then you've got to take it before all. It's God's time-honoured Scriptural law, really, New Testament law! Then you have to take it before the whole congregation & reprove him & pray for him or get him healed or whatever it is before the whole congregation! The Scripture says, "And if he will not hear them, then let him be cast out as an heathen & heretic" (Mt.18:15–17; Tit.3:10). So they need to do that.

10. IT PUTS THE PERSON ON THE SPOT, IT PUTS EVERYONE IN THE CONGREGATION ON THE SPOT TO REALLY PRAY & EXERCISE THEIR FAITH & EXPECT RESULTS. It puts the person on the spot that they've gotta really try & be determined, put their will on God's side & be determined to try to do it & have faith for themselves. And it puts the whole congregation on the spot, & it puts God on the spot! I can't understand why they haven't.

11. ARE THEY AFRAID TO EMBARRASS THE PEOPLE? Are they afraid to embarrass themselves? They're afraid to offend the person. Or are they afraid of embarrassing the person? Well, when they get to that point where nothing else works & all else has failed, what difference does it make if they embarrass or offend the person? They've got to do it! And I think sometimes it's because the leadership or the congregation even is afraid to be embarrassed.

12. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE BIGGEST THING IS THAT THE DEVIL REALLY FIGHTS WITH, & that is, "Well, we better not have a big general thing of it & bring it out in public & let everybody know, because if we pray all together & let everybody know & then if it doesn't work, then we're all failures! Then the problem case is not only a failure, but if we bring it out & publicly announce it & have public prayer for it & it doesn't work, then we're a failure!"—Look what a damnable doctrine of devils that is!

13. THE DEVIL REALLY TRIES TO SCARE PEOPLE OUT OF TAKING A DEFINITE STEP OF FAITH & putting God on the spot & themselves on the spot! When you have public prayer for somebody‚ like for healing, like my Mother as an evangelist, it put her on the spot. But it put the person on the spot too, & it put God on the spot, & He likes it! Because He likes that recognition‚ He likes that public testimony to His Word & your faith & His faithfulness, & it never fails.

14. YOU GET RESULTS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER: Either they get delivered, or like in the case of David Hoyt, he was so stubborn & rebellious & wasn't willing to get rid of that devil—or Isaiah, either one. When you expose them before the whole Family you get rid of the problem one way or the other! Either they get delivered or you get delivered of them!

15. I MEAN, THIS LEADERSHIP THAT KEEPS PUTTIN' UP WITH THAT KIND OF STUFF & PUTTIN' UP WITH IT for fear of offending them or fear of embarrassing them, I think most of the time they're afraid of embarrassing themselves & afraid of embarrassing the whole camp or the whole Home, the whole congregation or the whole Fellowship. I mean, serious cases like that ought to be first of all dealt with by the whole Home, & if that doesn't do it, then maybe the whole Local Fellowship, the whole LAF. And having brought it before the congregation & they still don't get the victory, then it says let'm be cast out.

16. AND AS WE FOUND OUT‚ IN NINE CASES OUT OF TEN, MAYBE MORE—OR ALL OF THEM, MAYBE 100% OF THE CASES—IT PUTS THE PROBLEM CASES ON THE SPOT: "Are you gonna try? Are you going to exercise faith? Are you determined to obey God & get the victory or not?" So much of it depends on their own will & their own determination, their own choice to decide, & then they either get delivered, or as I say, they don't‚ & you get delivered of them!

17. USUALLY IF THEY DON'T WANT THE DELIVERANCE, LITERALLY, & DON'T GET THE DELIVERANCE BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT IT, they'll deliver you of themselves & get out! Because they've been publicly exposed & publicly reproved, really, & publicly prayed for, & if they don't really want the victory & deliverance, then they are ashamed to stay & embarrassed & will usually get out.

18. IT'S A VERY TRYING ORDEAL, IN A WAY, FOR LEADERSHIP & CONGREGATION BOTH, & THE PROBLEM CASE. But it's necessary. In a sense it is a trial, a trial of faith‚ & it takes the combined faith of the leadership, the congregation & the problem case. But if they will all really exercise that faith, obey God's Word, take it before the congregation, have desperate prayer about it there & then & expose the individual, that they've got to get the victory or else, if they really want it, you know God won't fail! God'll give it! PTL?

19. LEADERSHIP KEEPS PUTTIN' UP WITH THESE PROBLEM CASES FOR FEAR OF OFFENDING'M or embarrassing'm or embarrassing themselves or embarrassing the congregation. I think there are some people even afraid of embarrassing God! They're worried about God's reputation! I remember my Mother used to say‚ "Don't worry about God's reputation, whether He's gonna come across or not, God'll take care of His own reputation! You just do what God says & let Him worry about His own reputation!"

20. THEY'RE REALLY AFRAID & WORRIED ABOUT GOD'S REPUTATION! "What if we don't get the victory? What if He doesn't answer the prayer? Oh my! What will people think of our faith & our God? It didn't work. He didn't work. He failed!" Let me tell you right now, He'll never fail as long as we meet the conditions, do what He says, exercise faith in prayer in unity & obey His Word by taking it before the whole congregation when all else has failed, & taking them before the whole congregation.

21. THEN THEY KNOW IT'S A SERIOUS THING! They know they're on the spot & that's the last stop before they're out! And they've either got to get the victory or get out! One or the other! So they need to do it! There's no point in putting up with these problem cases & just whispering around behind their backs & just having a little private session with just top leaders & wasting their time & everything. I never wasted my time on those cases, I'll tell you!

22. THE LEADERS WASTED MORE HOURS & HOURS DEALING WITH THEM & DEALING WITH THEM AS THEY CALLED IT—whatever that is!—Instead of just bringing it out! If the leaders couldn't get the victory, just like the disciples, when they couldn't get the victory & cast out certain devils they came & asked the Lord, "How come we couldn't do it?" Then He had to cast the devil out. He said‚ "Some of these things come not out save through fasting & prayer" (Mt.17:21).

23. THEY NEED TO HAVE A DAY OF FASTING & PRAYER OVER THE CASE! Let everybody know it's serious & really pray & bring'm before the congregation, have public prayer! Expose them! They need to do that, they really do! Then the congregation has done what they can. They have done it. Then the person's got to do it or else, & God's got to do it or else.

24. AND IF THERE IS COMPLETE UNITY WITH ALL THREE FACTORS: THE PROBLEM CASE, THE CONGREGATION & THE LORD, THEN YOU'LL GET RESULTS! And you know good & well if the problem case, the subject, & the congregation are in agreement & unity & determined to get the victory‚ you know God's going to get the victory! PTL!

25. BUT IF THE CONGREGATION'S NOT WILLING TO BRING IT OUT IN UNITED PRAYER, OR THE SUBJECT OR THE PROBLEM CASE IS NOT WILLING TO EVEN BE PUBLICLY PRAYED FOR, for example, & to be exposed, & unwilling to let it be known to the whole congregation what a problem they are & what their problem is, etc.‚ & let it be public knowledge & public exposure & public humility & public humiliation, if they're not willing to get down on their knees before the whole congregation & cry out desperately to God along with them to be delivered, then they're not willing! So it takes all three!

26. BUT IF THE CONGREGATION'S WILLING TO DO THAT & THE SUBJECT'S WILLING TO HAVE A PUBLIC PRAYER ABOUT IT, knowing he's a desperate case‚ you know that God's willing to deliver. That takes unity to know how to agree together. The Lord says first personally deal with them, then take two or three witnesses to deal with them, & finally‚ if that doesn't do it, bring'm before the whole congregation.

27. AND THEN IF THAT DOESN'T DO IT, YOU KNOW GOD HASN'T FAILED, & the congregation's obeyed so they haven't failed, so who's supposed to be thrown out?—God? Because He failed? Or the congregation? Did they fail? No, they obeyed, & God never fails. So it's the subject's fault then. It's brought out openly. Then everybody knows who's to blame & everybody then is going to agree that the guy needs to get kicked out, he's gotta go!

28. THAT WAY THERE'S NO WONDERING & QUESTIONS BEHIND EVERYBODY'S BACK, "Well, why did he leave? Oh, poor So–&-so, what happened to him?" There's a backslider, excommunicant's named in the Magazine, &, "Oh‚ well, why did that happen? We liked him." And they put in an ad, "Oh, we still love you, you can come to us" & blah, blah! What happened to that ad, by the way? (Maria: We deleted it.) So PTL!

29. IT IS THEN PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, PUBLIC UNITED EFFORT & PRAYER & UNITY OF THE SPIRIT, obedience to God, faith in prayer‚ public exposure—if it comes to that—& then because God & the congregation are united, & if the problem case is united too, they will get the victory! If the problem case, like David Hoyt & Isaiah & some of them refuse to get the victory, then they'll get out!

30. THEY EITHER GET THE VICTORY OR GET OUT‚ PERIOD! I don't like to keep anybody's problem cases! It shows they have not brought it to a crisis. They have not precipitated a crisis, they have not brought it before the congregation, they have not put God, the congregation & the case, the person, on the spot! They've tried to avoid this. They even try to avoid it for the sake of protecting the reputation of the congregation‚ or the reputation of God or even the reputation of the problem case! Well, that doesn't get the victory!

31. (MARIA: OR MAYBE THEY THINK HE'S INDISPENSABLE.) THE DEVIL LOVES THAT, NOBODY'S INDISPENSABLE!—ESPECIALLY PROBLEM CASES! I've told you that bad apples will eventually cause trouble one way or the other & they drag the whole army down! I've been against that since the beginning! Ho & Josh & Jeth & them would deal with these people for hours because they didn't want to lose'm. I said, "Fooey! You bring them to me, I'll settle it in five minutes! Do you want to stay or not? Do you want to get the victory or not? We're not going to make you! And if you don't get the victory, we don't even want you! So make up your mind, hurry up! If you want me to pray with you right now for the victory, then I'll expect you to get it, period!—Or get out, either one! Get it or get out!"

32. (MARIA: AND YOU SAID THE LORD LOVES TO PRECIPITATE A CRISIS!) Yes, it puts everybody on the spot, & gettin' put on the spot's good for everybody! It's good especially for the problem case, & it's a good exercise of faith for the congregation, & God loves to be put on the spot because He knows He's not going to fail! He knows He'll be a good testimony. But if the congregation doesn't exercise their faith & unity in public prayer for a problem case‚ then they're not willing to be put on the spot. They're afraid they're going to fail! That's not faith!

33. AND OF COURSE, THE PROBLEM CASE‚ THEY SELDOM EVER WANT TO BE PUT ON THE SPOT & PUBLICLY EXPOSED & be made a public problem case, because they know then they've got to get the victory or get out, & they don't want to get out! No problem child wants to get out! They want to stay & be a problem child & get lots of attention & take everybody's time & be pampered & petted & babied & spoiled! That's what they want‚ to cause as much trouble as they can! It's like the Devil! I've told you guys this before, why do I have to tell you again? Huh? Just tell'm, OK?

34. BRING'M BEFORE THE LORD & THE WHOLE CONGREGATION & TELL'M "YOU & WE'RE GOING TO PRAY! We know God won't fail & we're obeying God so we're not failing, now what are you going to do? Are you going to get the victory or get out? This is your last chance! We're finished! We're fed up! We've had it! We've had you up to here & beyond! Now either you are going to get the victory this time‚ publicly exposed in a public case where we're going to unite publicly to pray for you, or get out! Get it or get out!"—And that's that!